RE: [californiadisasters] OT: AZ green SHeet

I agree Kim, I am not going to put anyone down because I was not there, but I have a few questions that I hope will get answered. Where were their safety zone and escape routs? AS a fire look on the Tonto from 2003 to 2005 I called many fires in and my job was keeping the crew safe. There are a lot of key features that will tell you the weather is going to change. If this fire was going crazy to begin with why go direct they should have been going indirect. Anyway time will tell. Fires move very fast here in AZ the air gets dry fast the rh drops like a rocket and dew point goes bongers. The fire shelters being used were new they came out is 2000, they are lighter then the old ones, more durable then the old ones and suppose to take more heat then the old ones. There was just way to much fuel in that area! 18 Watchouts Situations 8, 10, 17- Standard Firefighting Orders 1,2,3,4,5 & 10. Every crew fire deaths in the last 15 yrs these were broken on each fire. Need to come up with a different way of fighting fire in the back country.
 

---

To: californiadisasters@yahoogroups.com
From: kimnoyes@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 15:19:37 -0700
Subject: Re: [californiadisasters] OT: AZ green SHeet

 

Two things stick out in my mind: one of the commanders of the fire stated the the strong winds reversed 180 degrees almost immediately and two: ALL their shelters were deployed with some being found inside them and some being found outside them. Those found dead inside their shelters had shelters that were not melted so they must have suffocated which means they were in an area ignition condition with all the oxygen being pulled out of the atmosphere in their immediate vicinity.

In the case of those found dead outside their shelters did the shelters get torn off of them by the wind?

If they were not in the black at the time why did they not start a fire and jump into the black? If they were in the vicinity of an area ignition condition would being in a patch of black have made any difference as far as the oxygenation of the air around them?

My own theory is that regardless of what went wrong and it was probably a convergence of multiple factors as always seems to be the case when things go wrong.

On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Rick Bates <HappyMoosePhoto@gmail.com> wrote:

 

I did 34 years on the line.  I too can guess what happened, but this one needs facts before supposition, hearsay and guesswork.  Qualified eyes on the ground, backed up with hard data. 

To have the entire crew deviate far from the well known standards (the 10 + 18) is unthinkable.  It's just not logical; they were better than that.  So I want to know what is discovered when the report comes out. 

If they violated the standards, the remaining question is more difficult; why?  Something must have caused the decisions they made; what were they?

Rick wa6nhc

PS for non-fire folks; 10 standard orders; 18 (there are MANY more) watchouts.  You can cheat on one or two intentionally (knowing you're taking the added risk) but never more than one or two at a time.  Never. 

Tiny iPhone 5 keypad, typos are inevitable

On Jul 2, 2013, at 12:33 AM, DJ Enterprises wrote:

 

I can most likely tell you the 3 things off the top of my head. but I want to wait. With the background I have in wildland fire fighting .

--
Check out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/californiadisasters/
Read my blog at http://eclecticarcania.blogspot.com/
My Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/derkimster
Linkedin profile: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/kim-noyes/9/3a1/2b8
Follow me on Twitter @DisasterKim

__._,_.___

Be sure to check out our Links Section at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/californiadisasters/links
Please join our Discussion Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/californiadisasters_discussion/ for topical but extended discussions started here or for less topical but nonetheless relevant messages.

Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

__,_._,___